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time to evaluate...fab four...

by Bored Member

by straight points (stat work by naked cricket)

hope that hangover of emphatic win has settled by now...yes? thanks!...

coming straight to point...

it's clear that we won't be seeing FAB four together again...but this post is not about praising the services they rendered...we were privileged to see them play...together...how we started winning more matches abroad...how we shrugged off the tag of 'soft travelers' etc. etc.

its about...dispassionate evaluation of fab-four...

do you really think we won enough tests with fab-four in their prime or even what they are today?

i, for one, don't think so...

we needed 120 odd against windies...and lost...

those (in)famous collapses in harare, bangalore, kingston, chennai still linger in memory...

weakest pakistan side to visit india also left with their chin up and a 1-1 score line...

and we nearly managed to repeat the feat in this series as well...but in all probability it was a gift from ricky that we are celebrating this 'emphatic' win...

don't we always dread that collective, mindless collapse...specially in series deciders...?

stats cricinfo

27 comments:

Gaurav Sethi said...

the fab four may be a media creation, but it's not entirely a misnomer.

Granted, rarely was there an allignment of belief, form and performance amongst all four but that's one helluva tall order.

Believe their impact was reduced because of opening lacks both with bat n ball.

Q said...

Its an old saying that 20 wickets win u test matches and I truly believe in it.

The Fab 4, no doubt among the world's best, never won India test matches. At home India always used to win on the back of their spinners - Kumble and Bhajji in the last decade.. Kumble before that..

The spinners were ineffective abroad and India only started winning away from home once they started developing a good pace attack, which they never had in the last century... Zaheer, RP, Irfan, Sreesanth, Ishant, Munaf just to name a few...

Even the Australian side that dominated for a decade and a half did so on the back of McGrath and Warne..no matter how strong the batting, if the bowlers cant take 20 u will not win a test.

Q said...

Another difference from the past and now - DHONI and the tail..

In the past from 155-6, India would have folded for 170.

Today India can always count on Dhoni to get them out of trouble if the top order fails as it happened in the 2nd innings in Nagpur.

The tails contribution over the last 2 years has been immense - in the Windies, in England, this series.. the srinaths and prasads could never do that..

straight point said...

NC..

first thanks for doing the stats for me...

good start to a debate...

agree with you that it is one hellua tall order...and bit on opening part too...

but would you need second invitation for chasing a score of 120...and that mindless session we had on harare...i still feel the pain of it...

we surrendered the golden chance of sealing the series in oz 2003-04 inspite of getting dream start from viru when he scored almost double century in single day...

first we not used to of winning...coz of openers and now inspite of that....

straight point said...

Q...

i truly believe too that 20 wickets win you matches...but its not only about that...

let me take example out of current series...

by the end of day 3rd of final test match of this series our bowler did tremendous job of handing over 86 runs lead to us...

wont you like to believe that bowler did the job?

now by the lunch of forth day our openers almost put oz out of match by scoring at good pace and then that looming ugly face of collapse happened...

we could have lost the golden opportunity to win this series that too against weakest oz side that have toured india since ages...

and this was the purpose of the post...

to me they played well throughout but could have been better given the same circumstances...

Anonymous said...

PAN, yes we had bad time also in the presence of fab4. but now every one is scared about their future as we have options availabel over and above our expectation. They are really playing very seriously. that is why we are at number 2 in the presence of fab4.
hopefully we would be fab11 in near future.

straight point said...

fab11...great...i liked your spirit SA!! :)

but you missed the question of the post...do you believe that we won enough with them?

Q said...

You are right SP, but to answer your question - No, India did not win enough with the fab 4 but the losses were not always due to them. They may av collapsed every now and then but India largely used to lose abroad due to lack of spite in their bowling attack.

The combined failure of the Fab 4 resulting in a loss would have happened very rarely - u pointed out 5 instances in this post, there may be another 5, max 10... not more.

Which in the larger scheme of things is still alright I think.

Anonymous said...

PAN,Exactly not.
frankly, I find they were playing as a permanent player, as much options were not avaialable. But now their position is not safe. New talent is growing fast and knocking the door. And fab4 knows very well, that now their position is not secure and any time they can be replaced or asked for quit, now they are playing for themselves and teak is getting benefit.

straight point said...

Q...

i agree instances may not be more than what yo have said...

but if you closely follow the picture which will emerge is that those were often decisive moment of series...or series deciders...

not to forget recent srilanka series...i know mendia mania swept us...

but if yo scratch the surface bit more you will see that we got good starts in most of the innings from sehwag and gambhir...

infact they were the two who looked more comfortable against him...and our fab-four were supposed to handle him better for they have more than 50K international runs and 100 century to their credit...

what i am try to say it better showing was expected of them for all the experience they had...

straight point said...

Q...this moment should be framed maan...

a pakistani is with Fab-Four and an indian is not totally agreeing... :)

but its always good to initiate healthy debate...without any pretext...

Q said...

SP - I think that the moment that needs to be framed is on your blog some time ago where u were criticizing Sachin and I was saying he was GOD..

Hahaha - now that was priceless!

Q said...

I am digging up some stats for you SP ;-)

straight point said...

now that's altogether different perception SA!!

straight point said...

yo bet i am waiting Q ;-)

Anonymous said...

I do dread that collective collapse.. And I was anticipating one in Nagpur test.. It's just that we got lucky..
Those infamous collapses gave me a lot of pain especially the one against Pakistan in Chennai..
But I believe this could have happened with anyone irrespective of whether we had fab 4 or not..
Thanks for a nice post..

straight point said...

thanks and a warm welcome prasanna! hope you will keep dropping by...

granted...the collapse can happen any time with anybody...

but don't you think we dread those coz of nagging frequency in deciding moments?

cheers!

Q said...

As promised.

All 4 average higher in wins meaning that they have contributed to a number of Indian wins in the past.

Sachin (62 v 54), Dravid (68 v 52), Laxman (50 v 45), Ganguly (46 v 42).

The 4 have 94 centuries between them (Sachin 40, Dravid 25, Ganguly 16, Laxman 13) and only 12 of those 100s have come in matches that India has lost (Sachin 9, Laxman 2, Dravid 1).

This implies that they have played 82 match winning or match saving knocks between them!

Definitely more than how many times they have collapsed.

Aur kia bolon? ;-)

straight point said...

well done Q...you really digged in...

so even if i was writing from my memory i was almost right that they have close to 100 centuries between them...

what i wanted to say is that if you again dig at series deciders results you will get the real picture...

let me come back to this series to illustrate my point...and the irony of stats...

here accept dravid every body chipped scored heavily and yet the result of this series could have been 1-1

it takes just one match to screw up the things (and series) which no stats can reveal...

and thats what i wanted to highlight... :)

Q said...

I understand ur point SP.. and in return all I'm saying is that yes they have collapsed and lost series or drawn series that they could have won due to those collapses BUT they have won way more series that those collapses are alright.. they can't be expected to win every single one of them.

straight point said...

cheers Q!! well played...sir!

Anonymous said...

SP, favorites and other things aside, I think the Fab four did really well and the remaining three will continue to do fairly well. Yes, they could have won many more test matches, but remember in those days, we did not have so much strike power in bowling, especially opening bowling. We were always waiting for the ball to get old, and in that we leaked precious runs that the batsmen had to fight hard to get, and harder if it was in 2nd or 4th innings. I'm sure the Fab four would have given anything to bat with a bowling attack that we have now, in their prime.

Also, as many of you point out, the Indian tail has been contributing significantly since England 07. Is that a trend that will continue for some time? Possibly. Is that something we should bank on? Most probably not.

Let us not begrudge the Fab 4. They've set the platform at a place where we're thinking we should be up there (although they did, in their time reach the #1 at some point for a short time).

straight point said...

thanks for carrying fwd the debate VM! nice to get different perspective on same things...

but i would like to make it clear outset that this post was never meant to belittle fab-fours contribution to indian cricket...

i fully agree with you when you said that regarding opening on batting as well as bowling front...

but you will agree with me that of late it has become as writing on wall that if sehwag wont fire in the opening we don't even look to chase the target...safety first has been our approach despite having the luxury of having the experience any team would envy for...

i wrote this post as a fan who thinks that though fab-four did very well...no doubt about it...but
given the same circumstances we could have done better on those crucial and decisive moments...

Trideep said...

Nice Point SP,

I agree with you to some extent. But then i feel when fab-four were in their prime, they had lots of pressure on them to perform. It was a time when India didn't have a good opening pair. They didn't have a good depth in batting too. And they haven't received very friendly umpires too.

If you see the team now, we have the depth, moreover we have the will to fight it out. Earlier the later order batsmen didnt have the confidence within them if a Tendulkar or a Dravid or a Ganguly didnt score. There are many such factors So for us losing crucial matches in the past. Fab-four is not a reason for all of those.

Anonymous said...

SP, "...but
given the same circumstances we could have done better on those crucial and decisive moments.." a very reasonable expectation from us, greedy Indian fans. ;-)

straight point said...

TRI...

i see the pattern here as most of us are with coming with very distant past and comparing it with present...

i am not a stat guy and write/talk from the general impression i get from watching cricket...but still i believe that since sehwag has got himself settled into as opener our opening partnerships should be only below aussies...and specially since 2003-04 we have been more consistent...

dring this period sehwag has scored his last 11/12 centuries all above 150... it means that we can not always blame starts...

and i also beleive that dring this period we have won more matches with our bowling...

may be david barry can help...

so we can not pint point...that thing...as excuse...specially on later part of their careers...if we can call these 5 years as that...

straight point said...

hahaha good one VM!!

haven't you seen that ad...

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