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Dear all,
Kindly appreciate, it is not a molehill as this is not only about cricket but our general attitude as Indians when we are at home or when we go overseas. We want to benefit by taking up foreign citizenship but when it comes to showing some respect to our country of residence we draw a blank.
I think supporting a particular team in sport is a true litmus test of one's loyalty on most occasions.
The truth is that we Indians do not want to be a part of the mainstream once we go abroad. The Indian-origin people in the West Indies, Mauritius, Malaysia are an exception to this rule and I salute them.
We must learn from the likes of Sonia Gandhi to adapt to a foreign culture and become part of a mainstream once we have chosen to live in a particular country instead of clinging on to our country of origin all the time (how romantic, ain't it).
If there is such a big connect with the motherland/country of origin then come back to India and stay here, feel Indian, experience the positives and drawbacks of living in India, pay your taxes here, come and vote, contribute to my democracy, experience the corruption. Why contribute to another country's economy?
I'm not saying it's wrong to live in another country to pursue trade, profession etc. but atleast don't show double standards then.
Please read the last issue of Outlook magazine (it's an Indian magazine) which throws light on how racist we Indians actually are. Perhaps, the most racist people in the world and hypocrites as well even though we don't generally resort to violence while pursuing our racist agenda unlike some other communities.
We discriminate against black African or American students in our country and against the white people and all other communities abroad in the sense that we don't want to be part of their nation and remain outsiders. This could be because we feel victimized due to racism. But as i stated we remain the most racist people ourselves. So why complain.
Indians love taking a dig at others with phrases such as SAALA KAALA or SAALA GORA or SAALA CHINKI. We maintain this great Indian tradition even when we go abroad and try to stay aloof from the SAALA GORA despite holding British/American/Australian/Canadian passports for personal gain.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to run down my own people but just stating some facts.
And I repeat that I'm not referring to NRIs here - people who still hold Indian passport but work abroad. I am referring to PIOs who hold foreign passports and have given up Indian citizenship because it did not suit them or was a hindrance for them. However, supporting India in cricket suits them. That is when they suddenly realize that they are Indian.
Also all this talk about supporting India over country of residence England because Brit Desis (especially 2nd,3rd generation) like the Indian team more than their team, appears to be very shallow.
The way I look at it, they support India because they still want to have their distinct identity and not be seen as Brits. No other reason for them to support India. I know this b'cos i have studied in the UK and observed the Brit Desis from close quarters. Even questioned them on this issue.
And the answer generally was.... We support India bcos we are Indians and we feel Indian and not just bcos we like the team.
I once asked a Brit Desi who was often seen wearing the India jersey during India-England matches, to make a trip to India to visit me once he was through with his degree. And guess what... He told me he can't take the bludy heat so he'd rather visit southern France. There you go. Double Standards at its best.
Whoopsi Daisies! This man is an Englishman at heart and does not want to accept it. But he likes to be associated with India bcos India in his eyes stands for Bollywood, Shah Rukh Khan, Bhangra, exotic food, culture and everything else that now makes him proud... suddenly after so many years.
I am no one to give others a certificate of their being Indian. But I thought I had to make a mention of our hypocrisy and double standards through the prism of cricket/sport.
Jai Hind
Which Is My Country - The Real Story
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14 comments:
nikhil ur post in a way establishing the very fact which you seems to be opposing...
...that patriotism is certainly not about supporting a team...
according to me patriotism is about supporting your nation. For Brit Desis their nation is England as their nationality is British and so they should ideally be supporting England.
K
I strongly object to your view that Brit Asians support their countries of origin because they don't want to be seen as Brits.
I don't know how much time you spent in UK, and I don't know how long ago it was. But I have been here for the past 5 years. I have studied here, worked here..in the supposed "British" neighbourhoods and in very Desi areas.
Brit Asians have their own culture. That is not a bad thing, is it? As long as they respect other cultures? I mean Punjabis living in Tamil Nadu can celebrate Lohri or cook Punjabi food or do the Bhangra, or do you expect them to become Tamilians?
You yourself say that this support to India is limited to cricket and food and bollywood..talk about any other thing related to India, the corruption, the poverty, the heat (!) and they become British. I don't make this to be double standards. This is how it should be. They should feel "Indian" culturally, but be a part of Britain otherwise. I don't think a PIO or a 2nd/3rd generation Brit Asian would work against the interests of Britain any more than an Indian (living in India) would work against India.
Leave support for a cricket team to what it is. Just support for a cricket team.
Dear Megha,
1. You may object to my views but the truth remains that the Brit Desi wants to stay alienated from the mainstream. I have seen live examples as I have family there.
2. Who's stopping them from being Indian culturally but does that mean they root against their homeland England (where they have grown up, studied, lived all their lives)and instead support an alien land (India), a land they might have never seen or never wish to see.
3. Also how does Tamil Nadu and Punjab figure in this debate. I don't think it's a fair comparison. These are not two nations but just two states of the Union of India which are defended by the same army, governed by the same constituion, civil and criminal laws, allocated money by the same central government in its annual budget, have the same educational system. Further these states fall under the authority of the same Supreme Court, same Parliament and same head of state.
4. Ironically, the Punjabi living in Tamil Nadu will ultimately have to grow up and play Ranji trophy for Tamil Nadu and not Punjab because he is domiciled there. So I do expect him to become a Tamilian for all practical purposes.
1. You may object to my views but the truth remains that the Brit Desi wants to stay alienated from the mainstream. I have seen live examples as I have family there.
I have seen live examples of Brit Asians who are very much part of the mainstream. On that note, can I ask you what is your criteria of someone qualifying as being "part of mainstream"
2. Who's stopping them from being Indian culturally but does that mean they root against their homeland England (where they have grown up, studied, lived all their lives)and instead support an alien land (India), a land they might have never seen or never wish to see.
You assume support for "Indian Cricket Team" as support for "India, the nation". It is not the same.
3. Also how does Tamil Nadu and Punjab figure in this debate. I don't think it's a fair comparison. These are not two nations but just two states of the Union of India which are defended by the same army, governed by the same constituion, civil and criminal laws, allocated money by the same central government in its annual budget, have the same educational system. Further these states fall under the authority of the same Supreme Court, same Parliament and same head of state.
The comparison is not that far off the mark. Punjabi and Tamilian are two different ethnicities in India. Native English and Asian British are two ethnicities in England. A first generaion Punjabi in a mostly Tamil society will have to adjust in a similar way as a first generaion Indian does in Britain. He will try and pass on his Punjabiyat to his kids, similar to how an Indian will do so in England.
4. Ironically, the Punjabi living in Tamil Nadu will ultimately have to grow up and play Ranji trophy for Tamil Nadu and not Punjab because he is domiciled there. So I do expect him to become a Tamilian for all practical purposes.
Similar to how a Bopara plays for England is therefore British? And when I mentioned a Punjabi becoming a Tamilian, I meant culturally.
K that was brilliant... Just one small thing, the people from Westindies, Mauritius & Malaysia are no better.
May be the Westindians are a bit different when it comes to cricket. But the same is not true to the Malaysian hockey, watch Sultan Azlan Shah Trophy next time and you would know. Mauritians have not been a sporting powerhorse anyway.
When it comes to the other walks of life these guys still pride talking about how Indian they are (Megha, roots is fine when you are a 2nd / 3rd gen but branches is bad !!) and we Indians also like celebrating them and making them bigger than life be it an Aniroodh Jagannath or a Basudeo Pandey or a Lord Swraj Paul
And coming to the Punjabi in Tamilnadu example... I have seen many, they are quite a strong community in Madras. I have seen almost a majority of the 2nd third gen talking the "Macha" language (the college goers Tamil) and clapping on for a Rajinikant. This exactly is what is lacking when it comes to the Desis K is talking about.
We have also seen many Punjabi's play for TN in Ranji (Ashish Kapoor is a recent example), the AG Ram Singh family is probably one of the first families of TN cricket although they are not Tamils. They get treated this way because they let themselves to be assimilated by the society at large and this is what the desis don't
1. Hypocrisy and double standards are by no means an Indian monopoly
2. Desis in the UK are ghettoised, like every other minority in the UK. This is partly due to the UK society's practice of gentle apartheid, and partly due to the UK's inherent class structure. (This is normally not so in the US which insists on a melting pot social fabric. But then, people in the US generally don't complain either when immigrants cheer teams from their original countries. Also, 3rd generation US immigrants are far more integrated and likely to cheer US teams over any other country.)
3. The Brits need to quit whining and look within. There's a reason why grandchildren of immigrants cheer for their grandparent's country and boo the country where they were born and raised, and I seriously doubt it is all due to the immigrant minority's cussedness like this post makes it out to be.
4. If you look at Europe today - some countries like the UK, France, Russia, Baltics etc have major problems with minorities because of the majority group's culture and social attitudes of exlusion and soft apartheid. Other countries, which are more inclusive and welcoming of diversity have large minority communities with no major problems - Netherlands, Sweden etc.
5. This sanctimonious BS about Indians abroad cheering for the Indian team, has been ongoing on BCC! for a while now and I'm seriously getting tired. People should take the trouble to understand an issue before regaling us with their holier than thou Arundhati Roy-isms.
Well I am not sure even they care about Indians . I work in a software company and visited UK for a short duration.Believe me the shittiest bunch of arrogant fools were the people of Indian origin working in the same company . So much more than the brits themselves who we were very cordial towards us in spite of the fact that we may end with their job. This was true everywhere even in the neighbourhood where we were staying.
Would like to make a couple of points.
The Punjab-Tamil Nadu situation does not involve complex issues of citizenship, nationality. So not a very good example.
Dear Yenjie,
This blog is meant for us to express our views and such interesting issues will always attract a lot of attention for a long time to come. So please don't get tired because healthy debates are part of a healthy democracy. It's good to know everyone's opinion and react to each other's views as long as we don't get personal.
I am glad that a discourse that was initiated by me has got reactions from almost all bored members and a few others as well.
K... I would beg to differ on the TN - Punjab example. It indeed is a good one.
What is citizenship after all ??
It is something which validates your sense of belonging on paper.
I think in that sense in the TN Punjab example we must look at the sense of belonging more than a mere passport.
I can give you another example...
About a couple of months ago we were at a mall in Dubai. Malls here have that mandatory large size portrait of the rulers. My three year old looks at the photos and goes to name them one by one, and finishes it off with pointing at the UAE flag. A local man watched my little man intently, came put his hand on my boys head said god bless and walked off. He then spotted us half an hour or so later and hands a Mars bar to the kid and says "brilliant boy".
What is the take out ??
It was the feeling that an Indian 3 year old knows or tries to know me that made the local man do this. That is the sense of belonging I am talking about, the comfort one gives the other in making him happy that we care.
Passport is secondary
K
You still haven't elaborated on what makes someone part of mainstream according to you :)
Yenjie
Totally agree with you on Britain not having a melting pot social fabric like the US...in fact I was discussing this issue with someone a few days ago and said the same thing.
Megha,
The answer to what makes someone part of mainstream has more or less been answered by RajaB in the last few sentences of his comment on July 2. i.e. willingness to be assimilated in the local culture, society.
The Desis I have been referring to clearly lack this willingness.
K
thanks.
So let's say there are broadly 2 kinds of Desis in UK (and I talk of the 2nd generation and later). One, who are not a part of the mainstream. And the other, who are.
For those who aren't, we need to see the complete picture here. I said earlier that I don't believe Brit Asians don't want to be seen as Brits. I feel it is in fact the opposite. The question then is, are some of them not part of the mainstream just because they are stubborn? Or is it because of the larger problems they face being treated as an "outsider" in the country of their birth. In either case, the problem is so much more than just supporting India in cricket. Perhaps if these issues are tackled, this minor one will go away itself.
As for those who are already in the mainstream, as British as they can be, the rather trivial matter of them supporting India should be a non-issue anyway (i.e. if they do that, we are assuming that all Desis support India all the time, which i am sure is not the case).
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